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[ Midnight Blade ] So he QUIT...

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  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2017-08-02 20:59:47Show this Author Only
21#
  • Jack Smith On 2017-08-02 20:40:24
  • "Unfortunately this game is riddled with bugs and a company that could not be more unprofessional if they tried."


    that is the most accurate description possible for the situation.


    Hopefully this post won't be deleted, im not trying to stir anything up, just sharing my experiences about this topic


    There are also multiple people that quit in my server due to the 3.0, not only because only a fraction of the 3.0 stuff was added and we have the go it for the long haul to see an actual realized 3.0 but mostly because its oasis's mo to ignore the players suggestions and opinion. also when some of them came here to find out more about the update if they made a post that even merely hinted at oasis doing something wrong their posts and in some cases whole threads were deleted, they were threatened with being banned because apparently pointing out any flaws is seen as "enciting drama" plus with the new basic as possible forums they couldn't even send pm's to talk about matters or ask mods questions in private. I can attest to that last part myself, i've never heard of discord before but given my personal experiences I know its not worth my time getting it to ask a question that will go unanswered or make a suggestion that wont even be acknowledged let alone considered.



Hi! I for one believe in trying it first before ruling it out. We are aware that private messaging is down at the moment, which makes it difficult sometimes to talk in private or to message someone with a question. I have shared the discord link in case you are unable to find it and recommend that you guys do try to contact us. We do reply back, although not in a matter of seconds, we do try to respond and help as much as we can.


The resources are there, it is up to you to give it a go.


Official Discord: Click Here


~Jib


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On 2017-08-02 23:07:25Show this Author Only
22#
  • SoldMom4Ingots On 2017-08-02 19:55:08
  • It's no secret that the game's been going downhill ever since people started realizing how ridiculously overpriced everything in this game actually is, in fact I don't think there's ever been a game in existence that required 1000 bucks for a character let alone a flippin browser flash game. As far as Oasis go why should they care about bettering the player experience when the player deliberately spends ridiculous amounts of money in the game therefore allowing Oasis to just sit back and collect cold, hard cash with no need to make effort in the name of prosperity. When you think about it, is this game really an MMORPG? because those type of games require 99% grinding in order to get stronger, here in Naruto Online you can be the strongest person in an entire merge if you just spend as much as possible in a matter of 2 weeks at max. A formula like that is doomed to fail so at the end this project is neither good for the company's image and it certainly isn't for the player base. I don't know if Oasis wants to be stigmatized and labeled like EA but it sure looks like it.


i'm guessing you haven't played a lot of chinese developed games. its really not that different from any others and some are even worst. i get people come in to these games not knowing that, but that is just how it works. if people think anything is going to change, i'll tell you right now its not going to change. you really just have to decide if the game is worth playing.

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On 2017-08-02 23:32:06Show this Author Only
23#
  • nateate8 On 2017-08-02 23:07:25
  • i'm guessing you haven't played a lot of chinese developed games. its really not that different from any others and some are even worst. i get people come in to these games not knowing that, but that is just how it works. if people think anything is going to change, i'll tell you right now its not going to change. you really just have to decide if the game is worth playing.

You're right NO is the only browser game that I've played and I'm not holding any hopes that the state of the game is ever going to change but if they want their product to survive on the western marked they need to understand that by not responding to the needs of their customers/player base they're doomed to fail and kill their own product. It's their job to fit in with the needs of their own community and when they fail to do so people get outraged and people quit. I don't know what they're thinking but if they want to save the game and keep it alive change needs to happen.





This post was last edited by SoldMom4Ingots on 2017-08-02 23:34:57.
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On 2017-08-03 05:18:15Show this Author Only
24#

The game ain't perfect but I estimate we lost more people on S2 over time then we did just from 3.0 related stuff. As time goes on people will naturally get tired of a game. Hell, to keep it real with yall right now, NO is the only game I ever played for more than a year straight, and I still have no intention of quitting. I look forward to playing the 3.0 features more once they come out and I agree there are lots of things that could be done better but you could do like many players and just not pay for stuff any more. I don't plan to quit the game any time soon and eventually I will start spending again. For me its more of a personal finance matter than anger towards the company that is preventing me from recharging lol..but I digress;

There are measures you can take outside of quitting and still enjoy the game. Sure that random 140k ass hole might ruin your SWB streak but * it. You still get advanced refines anyway lol.

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On 2017-08-03 05:26:58Show this Author Only
25#
  • Beji On 2017-08-03 05:18:15
  • The game ain't perfect but I estimate we lost more people on S2 over time then we did just from 3.0 related stuff. As time goes on people will naturally get tired of a game. Hell, to keep it real with yall right now, NO is the only game I ever played for more than a year straight, and I still have no intention of quitting. I look forward to playing the 3.0 features more once they come out and I agree there are lots of things that could be done better but you could do like many players and just not pay for stuff any more. I don't plan to quit the game any time soon and eventually I will start spending again. For me its more of a personal finance matter than anger towards the company that is preventing me from recharging lol..but I digress;

    There are measures you can take outside of quitting and still enjoy the game. Sure that random 140k ass hole might ruin your SWB streak but * it. You still get advanced refines anyway lol.

Yeah I get you :-D but you get refines if you are top 10 so some dobt get even that...its a v eery good game and they can make it like heaven with full servers but I guess we wont see that...it will come a time in GNW there will be 2 groupa with 6 members each...cause if this doesn't change all my friends will quit.

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On 2017-08-03 06:11:19Show this Author Only
26#
Note: Sorry,the post does not exist or has been deleted
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On 2017-08-03 06:25:15Show this Author Only
27#

No one asked me, but I am going to post my 2 cents here anyways.

I think that a big part of the problem are the mods, they sometimes treat the customers unfairly and don't give a * about them.And after the customers start to complain about a certain something, they come back and give 20.000 coins as a "Sorry gift", meanwhile they lost 4-5 players(because they deleted their posts, made them feel unwanted and treated unfairly so they quit), and they don't understand that you lose 4-5 players today, you lose 4-5 tomorrow, at some point you'll run out...

Also if we look at things from their perspective, it would be like this: How would you guys feel working for minimum wage and cupons, and the customers treating you badly? I tell you how, frustrated...So basically we're here in a never ending blame circle, a circle that cannot be broken.My advice to you all is to leave, and never look back, because things are not going to get better, best case scenario, things will just be the same.

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On 2017-08-03 10:46:19Show this Author Only
28#
  • SoldMom4Ingots On 2017-08-02 19:55:08
  • It's no secret that the game's been going downhill ever since people started realizing how ridiculously overpriced everything in this game actually is, in fact I don't think there's ever been a game in existence that required 1000 bucks for a character let alone a flippin browser flash game. As far as Oasis go why should they care about bettering the player experience when the player deliberately spends ridiculous amounts of money in the game therefore allowing Oasis to just sit back and collect cold, hard cash with no need to make effort in the name of prosperity. When you think about it, is this game really an MMORPG? because those type of games require 99% grinding in order to get stronger, here in Naruto Online you can be the strongest person in an entire merge if you just spend as much as possible in a matter of 2 weeks at max. A formula like that is doomed to fail so at the end this project is neither good for the company's image and it certainly isn't for the player base. I don't know if Oasis wants to be stigmatized and labeled like EA but it sure looks like it.


Ever hear of Pockie Ninja? Its a now dead/ended game that was a Naruto/Bleach crossover. I was a free user there and I think they did eventually sold somethings for 1k, but the main thing they would do is sale something like: "Want this sage naruto? he is worth $1,200 but we are gonna release him on sale at $250!" It was frikken ridiculous man, like it was even a deal.

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On 2017-08-03 14:56:45Show this Author Only
29#
  • Ronin345 On 2017-08-02 00:25:51
  • Kaiser pulled for Han and with the 200 seales, he used it never got Fu. Just the bubble guy and Han so I don't think it's just Kage.

he got utakata twice and proceded to do one more 10 draw and got Fu at the 210 mark, so i think it`s working properly since everyone knew for roshi and han treasures u do 210 pulls for the super rare but since he got it on 200 on 210 he got final rare he was missing ( so still took 210 pulls to get eveything from the treasure )

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On 2017-08-03 20:21:16Show this Author Only
30#
  • Armand__ On 2017-08-01 23:54:25
  • Unfortunately this game is riddled with bugs and a company that could not be more unprofessional if they tried.


    It's sad that this happened to your server. But its worse that it is not an isolated event. Honestly the only advice I could give you is DO NOT use seal scrolls/summon scrolls until things appear to be fixed regarding kage treasures. I pulled both Roshi and Han at around 200 scrolls each during 3.0 so those treasures work properly. Also i encourage you to read the forums often in order to see if there are any problems with something before investing your in game resources. And pass the info to your server/group.


    As far as deleting threads go, i have never been a fan of how it is done in this community.


    To be clear i don't blame Jiburiru or any other mod for deleting posts/threads. They do the best they can and having been a mod of a forum myself in the past, i know its not easy. Specially in an environment that is toxic such as this (it is toxic for good reasons though, mainly the fault of the devs/Oasis decision making). In fact Jiburiru and Qolem are the best mods we have.


    Still usually before deleting a thread, no matter how offensive or ridiculous the conversation may be, it is better to close it with a final message stating WHY the thread was closed (can be going off topic, offensive discussions, or simply irrelevant to the section in which case the correct section must be stated). Then after 24 hrs, the thread can be deleted.


    Sometimes mods do this, sometimes they do not. But its a good way to let people know what they did wrong and at least partially defuse the sentiment of unfairness that will inevitably fall on the other person.


    Well that's my 2 cents on the conversation.

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On 2017-08-05 19:31:31Show this Author Only
31#
  • Jiburiru On 2017-08-02 20:59:47
  • Hi! I for one believe in trying it first before ruling it out. We are aware that private messaging is down at the moment, which makes it difficult sometimes to talk in private or to message someone with a question. I have shared the discord link in case you are unable to find it and recommend that you guys do try to contact us. We do reply back, although not in a matter of seconds, we do try to respond and help as much as we can.


    The resources are there, it is up to you to give it a go.


    Official Discord: Click Here


    ~Jib


I may not have used discord before, but have used the forums aswell as the "support" option extensively over the months ive been playing this game, not once have I received anything close to support I wont go into details as I dont want this post to also be deleted.


"The resources are there, it is up to you to give it a go."


The resources may technically be there for people to voice concerns and opinions, but every act oasis has taken since they first started this game proves that they could not care any less about giving the people who pay their wages a decent game experience and with the mods very heavy handed censorship we arent actually allowed to discuss anything that really needs to be discussed.


When I first started this game I spent more money than I should've ( got *ed into that freemium bit) but that all amounted to nothing as the person who dominated my server pvp events works for oasis and gets free stuff, then the cross-server events were implemented and the only change that made was that people were then farmed and beaten repeatedly by either very rich people or oasis staff they dont know rather than the ones they do.






This post was last edited by ............... on 2017-08-05 19:44:32.
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On 2017-08-05 19:46:25Show this Author Only
32#
  • ............... On 2017-08-05 19:31:31
  • I may not have used discord before, but have used the forums aswell as the "support" option extensively over the months ive been playing this game, not once have I received anything close to support I wont go into details as I dont want this post to also be deleted.


    "The resources are there, it is up to you to give it a go."


    The resources may technically be there for people to voice concerns and opinions, but every act oasis has taken since they first started this game proves that they could not care any less about giving the people who pay their wages a decent game experience and with the mods very heavy handed censorship we arent actually allowed to discuss anything that really needs to be discussed.


    When I first started this game I spent more money than I should've ( got *ed into that freemium bit) but that all amounted to nothing as the person who dominated my server pvp events works for oasis and gets free stuff, then the cross-server events were implemented and the only change that made was that people were then farmed and beaten repeatedly by either very rich people or oasis staff they dont know rather than the ones they do.



Hi! Although it is hard to see sometimes, Oasis has made many changes based on the communities feedback. From changes to events such as price, to changes to ninjas received in events, to things like adding back Rainbow Magatamas to the "Rescue the Jinchuuki" event. It is easy to sweep away the fact that they do listen to your feedback and just assume that they don't listen, but I am sure many of us in the community are aware of the positive changes they are making. Obviously, not every feedback can be made into a reality, but they are doing their best to slowly make those changes to improve the communities' overall experience.


A wise person once told me, "if you plant watermelon seeds, then you only get watermelon seeds". If one things does not work, it does not mean that something else won't work either. One cannot assume that Discord wont work just because you had a bad experience. I would try all the avenues before giving my own judgement on something.


I do recommend using Discord as that is probably the best way you can meet players and get support. Found Here


Hope this helps you!


~Jib


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On 2017-08-05 20:45:53Show this Author Only
33#
  • Jiburiru On 2017-08-05 19:46:25
  • Hi! Although it is hard to see sometimes, Oasis has made many changes based on the communities feedback. From changes to events such as price, to changes to ninjas received in events, to things like adding back Rainbow Magatamas to the "Rescue the Jinchuuki" event. It is easy to sweep away the fact that they do listen to your feedback and just assume that they don't listen, but I am sure many of us in the community are aware of the positive changes they are making. Obviously, not every feedback can be made into a reality, but they are doing their best to slowly make those changes to improve the communities' overall experience.


    A wise person once told me, "if you plant watermelon seeds, then you only get watermelon seeds". If one things does not work, it does not mean that something else won't work either. One cannot assume that Discord wont work just because you had a bad experience. I would try all the avenues before giving my own judgement on something.


    I do recommend using Discord as that is probably the best way you can meet players and get support. Found Here


    Hope this helps you!


    ~Jib


Gotta say i was pretty suprised when i saw charm fragments from junchuriki ... it was a nice touch also frags from mitsuri for lower lever players that cant get 4 or 5 wins... pretty happy with that ... but like i said before they should have put the konoha shop from thursday to sunday at least .. if there were players like me i badly needed 20 more charm packs cause got everything in lucky board but dont wanna spend 125 for them also i needed rainbow magatamas .. so the shop ould have been perfect for this week.

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On 2017-08-05 21:21:57Show this Author Only
34#

This is why many of us stress for the communities feedback, whether positive or negative (as long as its constructive). The reason is because we as moderators can suggest things to Oasis, but suggestions are only as strong as the communities feedback behind it. If you guys like Konoha shop and the synergy behind it with other events, then speak out about it and suggest it on the suggestions thread so that we as a team c*e your suggestions as a means of proving that such a change needs to be made. I do know that not every week can be the best events ever, but I am sure many players agree that Konoha shop is great to have especially as an easy synergy with multiple events.


I will forward your feedback for you; would love to see Konoha shop more often especially to synergize with other events.


~Jib

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On 2017-08-05 22:16:24Show this Author Only
35#

Actually the decision to enjoy the game should come from within..

it is not the bad situation that make it worse, the attitude towards situation itself make it become tragedy....


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On 2017-08-05 22:34:50Show this Author Only
36#
  • Jiburiru On 2017-08-05 21:21:57
  • This is why many of us stress for the communities feedback, whether positive or negative (as long as its constructive). The reason is because we as moderators can suggest things to Oasis, but suggestions are only as strong as the communities feedback behind it. If you guys like Konoha shop and the synergy behind it with other events, then speak out about it and suggest it on the suggestions thread so that we as a team c*e your suggestions as a means of proving that such a change needs to be made. I do know that not every week can be the best events ever, but I am sure many players agree that Konoha shop is great to have especially as an easy synergy with multiple events.


    I will forward your feedback for you; would love to see Konoha shop more often especially to synergize with other events.


    ~Jib

Thank you and not just for this week...having konoha shop with charm rebate and lucky board is good...people will say nah u have lucky board for charms...but higher then level 5 in charms wont be enough for the charms in lucky board cause they are just 30...and I know maybe im asking to much but advanced refines in konoha shop would be a gold mine for oasis cause a little cheaper ull get more out of the players...cant stress enough how much we need advance refines..i cAnt get more then 100 in the whole month.

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On 2017-08-06 01:42:43Show this Author Only
37#
  • Jiburiru On 2017-08-05 21:21:57
  • This is why many of us stress for the communities feedback, whether positive or negative (as long as its constructive). The reason is because we as moderators can suggest things to Oasis, but suggestions are only as strong as the communities feedback behind it. If you guys like Konoha shop and the synergy behind it with other events, then speak out about it and suggest it on the suggestions thread so that we as a team c*e your suggestions as a means of proving that such a change needs to be made. I do know that not every week can be the best events ever, but I am sure many players agree that Konoha shop is great to have especially as an easy synergy with multiple events.


    I will forward your feedback for you; would love to see Konoha shop more often especially to synergize with other events.


    ~Jib

The problem is, most of our feedback seems to be ignored. In the weekly event feedback, every time lucky board comes out we see multiple people say to change sage jiraiya to another ninja, we have seen people asking for that b4 the event feedback threads started and yet we still have him. Alot of people I'm sure, including myself, don't want to spam the threads with the same suggestions again and again(i dont want people to have to wade through the same suggestion 100 times, the current forum doesn let us like the posts though.

Its part of the reason i had such high hopes for the polls when they first came out, you guys could have asked us how to change specific events to make them better or if we thought they were fine as is and possibly chain polls to get more specifics(poll one asks our opinions on lucky board, 1) fine as is, 2) new ninja on board, 3) more rewards per die, ect, poll 2 chains to ask which ninja we would want if that was the highest in poll 1, and gives us a list of like 10 ninjas we would want to see frags of, you could do that to get a pool of ninjas for the redeem section too, give us 20-30 ninjas to choose from and cycle through the top 10 adding in new ninjas as they come out)


oasis also still hasn't followed through on some of the promises they made back in march, https://forum-narutoen.oasgames.com/page/show-post-16596-1.html , specifically the promise for improving the group activity packs and re-adding mood scrolls to the group wheel, tactics and mood scrolls are the only items right now that people have to buy from events/the shop and breakthrough pills which you have to spend/recharge ingots for in events, every other item can be gained for free from some ingame feature(rainbow mags from exams and jin event, normal mags from nine-tails exam group wheel, refines from; coin shops, GNW packs, monthly event and SWB(different levels from different places), thread from SA(are advanced threads in yet? no-one I've talked to in my group got any yet, a bit off topic sorry), charms from jin event, i think you get the point, but reply back if you want me to finish the list)


i don't want every week to have the best events, i like having time to save up coupons without feeling like i'm missing out on something great, but i also want events to actually have valuable rewards for me, lucky board considered one of the best f2p events is almost worthless for me since im p2p and the scaling of most of the items on the lucky board itself are terrible.

my lvl 6 mags take 2430 exp to get to 7 so those lvl 2 mags aren't doing much at 15 exp, i don't need medium thread anymore, i pulled kirin for free already i don't need extra summon scrolls, i have over 250 normal stam pots so i dont need those either, the flaying raijin kunai i never use my free daily chances so extras are worthless, i have over 480 seal scrolls so again dont realy need to see them in here, but i'll be thankful for them when the gnw treasure comes out in the future and i get my madara so kinda iffy on this one.

the point is that events are barely useful for high spenders, so we dont have many reasons to spend anymore unless a new feature or ninja comes out that we want. i personaly and other people in my group have all asked for changes with the event feedback thread, not huge ones, not ones that couldn't be done, but ones that we wanted to make those events valuable to us.


if there is something specific that needs to happen for the people above you to listen to our feedback then please, tell us, what is it? because the example feedback that is used on that thread is something i'm sure most of us want, how can we get it to happen? 4 people commented on the nerf to jin rewards, i've seen way more than that comment on lucky board throughout the feedback threads. So what do we need to do for our voices to be heard and acted on?


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On 2017-08-06 02:23:34Show this Author Only
38#
  • Shadoblaze On 2017-08-06 01:42:43
  • The problem is, most of our feedback seems to be ignored. In the weekly event feedback, every time lucky board comes out we see multiple people say to change sage jiraiya to another ninja, we have seen people asking for that b4 the event feedback threads started and yet we still have him. Alot of people I'm sure, including myself, don't want to spam the threads with the same suggestions again and again(i dont want people to have to wade through the same suggestion 100 times, the current forum doesn let us like the posts though.

    Its part of the reason i had such high hopes for the polls when they first came out, you guys could have asked us how to change specific events to make them better or if we thought they were fine as is and possibly chain polls to get more specifics(poll one asks our opinions on lucky board, 1) fine as is, 2) new ninja on board, 3) more rewards per die, ect, poll 2 chains to ask which ninja we would want if that was the highest in poll 1, and gives us a list of like 10 ninjas we would want to see frags of, you could do that to get a pool of ninjas for the redeem section too, give us 20-30 ninjas to choose from and cycle through the top 10 adding in new ninjas as they come out)


    oasis also still hasn't followed through on some of the promises they made back in march, https://forum-narutoen.oasgames.com/page/show-post-16596-1.html , specifically the promise for improving the group activity packs and re-adding mood scrolls to the group wheel, tactics and mood scrolls are the only items right now that people have to buy from events/the shop and breakthrough pills which you have to spend/recharge ingots for in events, every other item can be gained for free from some ingame feature(rainbow mags from exams and jin event, normal mags from nine-tails exam group wheel, refines from; coin shops, GNW packs, monthly event and SWB(different levels from different places), thread from SA(are advanced threads in yet? no-one I've talked to in my group got any yet, a bit off topic sorry), charms from jin event, i think you get the point, but reply back if you want me to finish the list)


    i don't want every week to have the best events, i like having time to save up coupons without feeling like i'm missing out on something great, but i also want events to actually have valuable rewards for me, lucky board considered one of the best f2p events is almost worthless for me since im p2p and the scaling of most of the items on the lucky board itself are terrible.

    my lvl 6 mags take 2430 exp to get to 7 so those lvl 2 mags aren't doing much at 15 exp, i don't need medium thread anymore, i pulled kirin for free already i don't need extra summon scrolls, i have over 250 normal stam pots so i dont need those either, the flaying raijin kunai i never use my free daily chances so extras are worthless, i have over 480 seal scrolls so again dont realy need to see them in here, but i'll be thankful for them when the gnw treasure comes out in the future and i get my madara so kinda iffy on this one.

    the point is that events are barely useful for high spenders, so we dont have many reasons to spend anymore unless a new feature or ninja comes out that we want. i personaly and other people in my group have all asked for changes with the event feedback thread, not huge ones, not ones that couldn't be done, but ones that we wanted to make those events valuable to us.


    if there is something specific that needs to happen for the people above you to listen to our feedback then please, tell us, what is it? because the example feedback that is used on that thread is something i'm sure most of us want, how can we get it to happen? 4 people commented on the nerf to jin rewards, i've seen way more than that comment on lucky board throughout the feedback threads. So what do we need to do for our voices to be heard and acted on?


Ok as u said this is the BEST f2p event.. and trust me this event is needed as it is for the weaker players to grow in BP also to get seal scrolls and other stuff... now i know that for u and me and people that have 6 level magatama and above is just not worth it but charms are and i still need some of the medium refines ... point is if those things like u said.. scrolls and magatamas arent there it wont be the best F2P event... and if sage naruto is added and he will be ... the dice will cost 50.. so trust me ur better off this way unless u spend big time so good for you .

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On 2017-08-06 03:50:10Show this Author Only
39#
  • S.H.I.E.L.D On 2017-08-06 02:23:34
  • Ok as u said this is the BEST f2p event.. and trust me this event is needed as it is for the weaker players to grow in BP also to get seal scrolls and other stuff... now i know that for u and me and people that have 6 level magatama and above is just not worth it but charms are and i still need some of the medium refines ... point is if those things like u said.. scrolls and magatamas arent there it wont be the best F2P event... and if sage naruto is added and he will be ... the dice will cost 50.. so trust me ur better off this way unless u spend big time so good for you .

ok, great for the weaker people, but for stronger people there aren't any good events. my charms are all lvl 6+ so 200 charms to level them to 7, so these packs arent event that great for me, they cost about 100 coupons a pack and i get about 40 coupons value in items from those spins on average, but those other items as i stated have little practical value to me even if they would have cost something to buy from the shop(i wouldnt buy them from the shop), there are 4 items on that board which have 0 value to me anymore, and 4 spots that dont give any item, so 1/3 of the board has no value.


i dont want it changed completely, but i would like it to give stronger people a reason to use it, i stopped wanting to spend on dice when i finished with my medium thread/refines. right now i just use my free dice to get 2 charms packs and i spend the leftovers on a ninja frag or 2.


seriously, who needs the kunai? who wants the stamina pots? do they realy need to give medium refines on the board and the redeem section? 5 coupons? plenty of things on the board could be improved. and ive seen plenty of suggestions for them in the event threads, ive even added suggestions myself.

  • Registered: 2017-07-24
  • Topics: 26
  • Posts: 232
On 2017-08-06 05:42:44Show this Author Only
40#

Man I get u believe me ...those 30 charm packs are nothing I spend 70 just now...talked to jib about konoha shop we need rainbow magatat and cheaper charms and dont get me started on 100 medium refines...i mean im almost done with them so I asked him if they can put advance refines so we can get them...they are so hard to get ...

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