I probably should have worded it better when I said his HP scaling was *. I didn't mean inrelation to his counterpart. What I was trying to say is Hokage Minato's base HP in relation to other "end game" unit's is terrible, it would be ok if his growth rate was better. I'm pretty sure he's in the bottom 5% of base hp's at max level in the game. I wish I could find the site with them all listed again so I could explain my frustrations,

But seen as you brought it up, using your own screenshots let's look at the base stats between him and his jonin version.

6k less hp, 4k less attack 2k less defense, 2k less resistance (ok yes I know he buffs this himself) and as for his ninjutsu ...

I'm just not seeing it, they aren't as good as each other.

Didn't you think about one Minato was cultivated and equipped and second is just "pure" stats?

Two different accounts, two different BP levels.

(I don't have Jonin Minato)

That was my mistake, but the BP (Stats up top) is irrelevant to the conversation, as it's about the growth of a character.

It's fine if you don't understand Hokage's strengths, But there' a reason (Not the lucky wheel) why his surge in PvP came last month.

Now I just noticed this, Onoki is on the same line and Tier as Sasuke Susanoo and he is somehow better than Mifune also? lol...

I don't even use Onoki with Sage Naruto and Fire because no immobile chase is making him pretty bad... And does nothing useful with the barrier other than buffing 3 elements, which you'll probably use only 2 anyway. Gives you an extra standard attack when the first standard already used up all the combos? Really?

edit: to top it all off he is very squishy

I don't know but I don't see him on par with those other ninjas in S.

Itachi and Minato.

Majority of PVP teams involved those two and Onoki provides, arguably the best offensive support via barrier (R1) and additional standard (chance)

It's not based on characters matching against one other, but what they bring towards a team, especially optimal ones.

I guess that explains why utility characters like Iruka, Killer B, and to a lesser extent Guy are a bit boosted.

I'm just gonna bring this up, so...

I use the chinese simulator (Due to ours being far outdated and not as accurate), and i was looking at Hokage Minato...

He gets another buff.

Basically, he loses the +combo rate per attack on his hero passive.

But gains the same buff as Jonin after each time he uses his flying Raijin jutsu.

That'd put him on Jonin Minato's level, right, if not slightly below. As long as he has tag, he gets the buffs, he buffs, he attacks, dodges, and if he does have the tag, he'll do an even bigger interruption then before. Atleast, that's what I've read.

...Please don't delete this comment due to referencing another version, everyone's doing it.

He doesn't just get that buff.

His mystery becomes AoE (Cross-Team)

His standard also automatically tags regardless of 10-combo.

At that point, he becomes higher than Jonin Minato (At the moment, he's on par with him depending on your playstyle) And arguably Wind God, alongside Kurama Naruto (Kyuubi Naruto drops to S+)

Honest, you should separate inside arena and outside of arena. The way arena "equalize" stats significantly benefit some ninjas while notably nerf others.

Examples of arena changes:

Self stacking ninjas like roshi, kimimaro, sailor sakura are far squishier in arena than outside, due to lack of hp mood.

Heals have 50% power (instead of 100%) if you do not have healing tips, further reducing the tankiness of ninjas like s sakura and roshi. With healing tips from water main, heals are at 90% power instead of 140% power.

base stats and stat growth of ninjas matter a lot more; a 5k attack standard really hurts against 2.5k defense and 10k hp. A 12k attack vs 9.5k defense and 17k hp does not hurt nearly as much. Against a blitz team who win barrier, breeze dancer (who has garbage def growth) dies in 3 standards in arena. In an 80k vs 80k fight outside of arena, she can survive all 4 standards + chases.

Defense/resistance modifiers like tag, and kage minato/hiruzen passive make a bigger impact in arena thanks to the non-linear damage formula.

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Kage minato's skill set get huge benefits in arena, making him perform far better there than outside of arena. He is relatively speaking, far harder hitting, and more tanky when compared to a sage or matsuri fight against an equal power opponent.

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Second issue: certain ninja combos work extremely well at stomping weaker players quickly, and falls flat against someone slightly stronger; while some ninja combos are relatively consistent.

The black hidan, roshi, bee team for example is crazy good at stomping players just 10k pow weaker than you; cripping them in round 1 and finishing it off round 2 with no contest. The damage output drops off rapidly at equal power, and becomes very subpar against someone just 10k power stronger.

The han, roshi, sailor sakura team does not really change in kill speed regardless if your opponent is 20k stronger or weaker than you.

Kage minato also suffer from this issue outside of arena: he is so dam good at 1 shotting teams 20k weaker than you at start of round 2; yet he get wrecked by most f2p meta teams 10k stronger than you.

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PS: This team is fun :)

It's overall.

Tier list involves every aspect of the game, or else a few higher ranked characters would be lower (GNW Tenten)

As par your examples. I don't understand what grounds it's coming from? Your own experiences or your own personal opinions?

Because the Hidan team is good regardless of BP difference. It punishes none immunity teams and it's what holds weight for LM.

Also your comment about Hokage Minato. He's not just a pubstomper, he's a legitimate PvP ninja, and with Earth Main(Which he should be used with), He bars the most potential. You can outscale and beat higher BP players using his kit effectively with his scaling and supportive team.

Personal experience. A lot of the arena stuff comes from testing things against myself using 2 accounts; then using the same team against each other outside of arena.

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For the hidan roshi bee team; if your opponent is 10k higher power than you, the team just won't do enough damage to kill anything on round 1. If you don't have initiative advantage, your roshi is very likely to get sniped at start of round 2, while hidan end up low hp or dead to splash and self inflicted damage. putting yourself in a very bad position against any of the common f2p meta teams. Danzo over bee makes the team function well against any f2p meta team, at expense of being extremely vulnerable to healspams. If your opponent is 10k weaker than you; your roshi is safe from snipes and likely faster, allowing you to just finish off the opponent at start of round 2.

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Regarding kage minato outside of arena, I'll admit, I'm biased against him from personal experience. I regularly face Hidan, roshi, bee, mb teams; roshi, han, ssakura, water teams; s itachi, masked man, fire, danzo/onoki teams. All 3 of these teams happen to be bad matchups for minato.

Dammit! That Masked Man description made me burst out laughing. xD

And yes, I WILL TRY TO FIND A WAU TO GET ROSHI!

wasn't the tier thing about 'global usefulness'? if the reason why onoki is so high is just by 1 single lineup (overall one whale only lineup) doesn't seem a reason good enough to put him higher than other ninjas like mifune (as mihai pointed out).

Early game Kabuto > Shizune because he heals 2 units.

But late game you will see Shizune shines better than Kabuto in PVP.

I recently used her for Matsuri for her healing buffs and she can stacks poison pretty fast and does more damage with her chase than Kabuto :)

Patch: 10/9/2017: Completely Bias

> Deidara [Edo Tensei] = [God]

> 3rd Raikage = [S+]

> Samui = [S]

> Omoi = [A]

> Yamato = [A to A+]

> Shino [GNW] = [B+ to A]

> Sasuke [Pb] [A to A+]

> Kurenai = [A to A+]

> Kakashi = [B to B+]

> Kankuro [GNW] = [A to A+]

> Orochimaru [Konoha’s Traitor] = [A to A+]

IM SO EXCITED THAT I GOT AN S RANKED WATER NINJA :D

I knew there was a reason whyI changed username anddp.

Thanks for the awesome list Tobei :)

Great Work on the Tier List, just some things don[t make sense to me; This list is based on 'what they bring towards their team, especially optimal ones'. Now, while i don't argue that Itachi and Minato are two ninjas that are used very often, I've almost never seen Onoki used with them. Sure, his passives would be great with them, but Onoki himself is not used that often apart from a few specialized teams. Barrier breakers like Roshi or Hashirama also negate Onoki's advantages. Compared to that, Mifune being ranked LOWER doesn't make much sense, since Mifune not only gives good buffs, they can't be negated except by Han, and Mifune is used quite frequently. In terms of 'what they bring towards their team' AND 'global usefulness', Mifune is superior to Onoki. I think with Onoki you may have stepped too far into the theoretical; sure, he's theoretically good for commonly used ninjas like Itachi and Minato, but if nobody really uses Onoki with them then that's not a good reason to place Onoki that high. Moreover, on almost any other lineups that Onoki could benefit, people simply use other ninjas - Gaara for Wind, Mei/Danzo for Fire. Earth is really the one place i see Onoki (especially Lee blitz teams). If your main basis for placing ninjas is if they're useful to hypothetical teams that aren't really used, then that makes me question if your Tier list is actually useful.

Now I want Edo Deidara even more...

Wait...really? Sweet!

Lucky stars paid off! :D